Additional concepts now cibsudered.
Rape may not have meant rape in the same exact context most who do not live in India understand it. This rape of "wife" may now go by a modern vernacular: "Rough Sex." Devotee women are different. Prabhupada explained on many occasions, he was not referring to devotee women, rather materialistic women. Additionally, his humble speech in the Butler church showing respect to all there including women, appears such quotes do not apply to women who are overall spiritual. The rape statement was subject matter not of male sexuality, but women. Had the subject switched to men - while can't put words in Prabhupada's mouth, reality of what we see is men like it. Our philosophy is that everyone's lusty in the material world. Karmi men often try to persuade the wife to dress up in a nurse or maid costume. Role playing. Devotee men should never do like that, simply the desire is there. Rough sex is the next best thing. Men are no exception to liking it.
Have recently read about old dictionaries (such as Websters of 1893) holding different meanings to the word 'rape' as opposed to how its used today. To even include in the definition: "friutive," and too: “taking anything — including a woman — away by force” However it also included sexual rape, a definition that seems to have become rougher over the centuries. We've seen some recent changes in dictionaries which many do not like, yet they were made. Most likely when Prabhupada attended University, these older dictionaries, as well as encyclopedias, were what he was given to study from. This of course is not where this topic ends, just worty of attention.
"So actually, married couples should be paramahamsas. Paramahamsa means the topmost stage of sannyasi. Paramahamsa. A sannyasi has got four stages: kuticaka, bahudaka, parivrajakacarya and paramahamsa. .... It doesn't matter whether a grhastha, vanaprastha, sannyasi. It doesn't matter. So when he preaches all over the world, that is called parivrajakacarya. And when he's experienced, he executes the work by his assistants. That is called paramahamsa. So grhasthas are supposed to be paramahamsa." - Sri Vyasa-puja lecture, London, Augt 22, 73
Recently a devotee questioned, what is bad preaching exactly? Who are we preaching to? That karmis don't show much interest in what we say about this, so we are preaching about this to DEVOTEES.
Many misunderstandings he makes here, start with mistake of thinking he understands the rape quote, suggesting devotees should surrender to the idea of rape of wife, when that is not clear understanding at all. Tthough probably what anyone who speaks like this desires to be able to get away with yet still go back to Godhead.
Another mistake he makes is not understanding karmis indeed care, not to look down his nose at them. Preaching to them is how they become devotees. Their opinion matters, especially since Prabhuapda's movement is to be in accordance with Lord Caitanya instructions to give Krishna to every town and village, and not a movement for rape or other excessive sense gratification, for some anyway.
Though many such misognynists do not want that brand of karmis to become devotees, considering them trouble, inferior, a problem they (misogynists) will have to confront in the future. They often consider them someone to keep away from devotional service. However,that is not Prabhupada's philosophy. Therefore it is WRONG.
Misogynists insist on indisputable position of authoritative power, simultaneously behind closed doors craving to rape wife? Oxymoron. Having taken vows of celibacy, they're breaking those vows in this way. Undergoing no sense of guilt as they're just giving her what she likes, he tells himself. Women are not owned by husband, and they are not husbands slave. Women belong to God and guru, Srila Prabhuapda referred to women as "his daughters."
"Yes, you should be proud of having a nice wife like that. And I have handed over my daughter unto you, because I knew it that you will be the perfect boy to take care of her. Recently she was deteriorating in her health, so I was very much anxious about her, therefore, I decided to give her in your charge." Prabhupada letter, Sept 20, 1968
Any misogynists thinking 'handing over his daughter' means they can do with her whatever they want, from maltreatment to rape, they conviently misunderstanding. Women belong to pure Srila Prabhupada and Krishna who is God. Clearly females are devotees who should be treated as such, wanting to maintain initiation vows she took before fire and Krishna, which grants her eternal connection to God and guru. Husband should not make her break vows or think he owns her. Fallen men are wanting so much sex under guises of polygamy and misogynistic rape. Hypocrisy. Prabhupada did NOT give any instruction to rape wife, but clearly gave the instruction of celibacy.
It is comprehensible that someone new, or has not delved into it for purpose of uncovering intent, regarding the quotes or commonets on rape, they may not be so easily understood. Many who've been devotees awhile still struggle with tit. However, those who don't want to abuse it, but get to the truth, stop now to consider the following. Pure deovtees like Jesus who walked on water, or Buddha incarnate with his mysticism, and too Prabhupada's spiriutally with his mystical powers, none of these elevated personalities would advocate rape, it doesn't even make sense. Thus we should next know to dig deeper. To look into it from the humble perspective that we are not fully realized, do not always immediately grasp knowledge expressed by such holy personalities. This is not escuse or denail, as this blogger wants truth. Recognizing I'm not pure devotee, not horrid devotee, in between, merely not level of sage. Thereupon, I must further investigate and find out what was truthfully intended.
Something to be considered is an interesting comparrison where the females mentioned there psychologically having attraction to her raper spouse, they were approximately of teenage years, intelligence not fully developed, sense control including the mind, not yet fully developed. Anyone with a teenager in the house knows they can be strongly driven by hormones and not always use their brains when it comes to making choices. Again not justification, just explanation. (Its also why polygamists want to get their hands on virgin underaged girls, because once matured the spiritual female will figure out his level of degradation.)
In modern times how many young girls have thought, when texted by their boyfriend every couple of hours, or receiving a phone call from him every hour, was love? This is a fact, as there are therapists now working with so many such young girls. Even if their boyfriend raped them, and many admited they were raped by such a boyfriend, often they still reamin in love with him, still thinking his activities are proof of his affection for her. However, chronic checking in on her is not love, it is his selifhness, controlling, manipulation, dishonety, and worry she might be cheating on him because he is cheating on her.
In the past there were not counselors to help the girl out of such confusion, it was common to find her a "qualified" husband, though she did not move into his house even after marriage, until she was older. Even than, part of being qualified as Vaisnava meant he did not engage in sex unless they both wanted to have a baby, with all that entails. Thus not a roll in the hay, especially not rape, even for the married priest. Scripture explains the baby often takes on, or is experiencing some of the consciousness of the parents during conception. Therefore to attract a Godly soul to the womb, there is to be a spiritual atmosphere with specific spiritual preparation. Thus pseudo first class followers of Prabhupada thinking this rape quote as instruction, is absurd!
Another perspective to be considered regarding the verse is it appears to be more related to ancient Vedic societal system known as Varnashraa Dharma, one that finds a place in the world for sudras, kstriyas, vyasyas, and brahmana's. There can be all types of people, all forms, and as time went on, various faiths like Hinduism. (Though Hinduism isn't really an ancient Vedic religion.) In such a system the woman get protection that fallen men do not harm her, which is seldom the way most misogynists intend protection. There's is more often bullying, which is not Vedic.
Therefore some points mentioned in that verse may be explained as related to Varnashramadharma, because Varnashramadharam was about keeping civility, it was for the common people of the world, and not for serious initiated persons. It was revealing lifestyles of the distant past, the generalized system that went along with times of long ago, how some young women felt, and how they were protected during their teenage years. Though teenagers of satya yuga for example, were physically more developed than our teenagers. Mysogynosists are not honoring the differences between young teenage woman of ancient scripture, and young teenage girls of kali yuga.
While Srila Prabhupada explained the process of Varnashramadharma, he also explained that in this kali yuga it can not be properly followed (with but a minor exception probably to give a chance to those who kept asking for it). Instead he was promoting Vaisnavism, which is higher than Varnashramadharma. At that time of the past, should a woman not find a husband, her life became difficult. Some may feel rape of that time, one aspect, and not the only aspect, meant she may have never experienced sex otherwise. Not justifying it, just a thought. Immediately to remind any misogynist readers, Vaisnava women who have taken initiation vows should not be viewed in the same manner as ladies of the past, who fit into many categories. Some were not automatically devotees, we do not at least see them mentioned to be always a devotee. Some were. But it appears this quote is more about keeping a moral society, and not an instruction to the initiated disciple, which would be higher.
"When He (Lord Chaitanya) met Sri Ramananda Raya on the banks of the Godavari, the varnashrama-dharma followed by Hindus was mentioned by the Lord. Sri Ramananda Raya said that by following the principles of varnashrama-dharma and four orders of human life, everyone could realize transcendence. In the opinion of the Lord, the system of varnashrama-dharma is superficial only and it has very little to do with the highest realization of spiritual values." -Srimad Bhagavatam Introduction.
Regarding roles of women described in ancient scripture, lets first look back, not that long ago in western countries, maybe a hundred years past, there still existed a stigma for many women who remained unmarried, considered 'old maid.' No longer is that the case. Now some woman do not want to marry or not until much older and have gotten together her life. While misognyists want to live in the past, Prabhupada lived in the present, as a realist. When a female disciple asked him if she should stay home and servie her husband as the Vedic women of the past did, he replied that no, she should not, but instead to use her skills to preach about Krishna.
Misognyists need to be willing to seek purificaiton and see the whole picture. Too often they want to imitate the lifestyle of the past, which Prabhupada warned against copying artifically. Of tha usually want only woman to follow the strictness of the other yuga's, while they remain rascals and bullies. Men thinking they can now rape or abuse and be considered a first class Vaishnava, are cheaters. There are the cheated, and of those who desire to be cheated. Than there are the truth seekers.
Srila Prabhupada's reply to a disciple:
"Regarding your enemy, Mr. Lust: I have noted the difficulties, but we should always remember that Krishna is stronger than any demon, and Mr. Lust, or his father or his grandfather, nobody can do anything provided we take shelter of Krishna very tightly. Now so far your personal matter is concerned, you are a Brahmacari, you can marry at any time, and in New York, all the nice girls, they are actually very suitable for our students, and I encourage that all the Brahmacaris may be very responsible, and marry one of the girls. Because generally the girls desire good husband and a good home, children, that is their natural propensity, so we want to show some ideal householders also. But the proposal that marriage will solve the question of lust, is not practical.
Neither wife should be accepted as a machine for satisfying our lust. The marriage tie should be taken as very sacred. One who marries for subduing lust is mistaken. Because lust cannot be satisfied simply by indulging in sense gratification. It is compared with that extinguishing the fire with large amount of petrol. For the time being, the fire may appear to be extinguished by pouring a large quantity of petrol, but the petrol itself is so dangerous that at any time, it can be in flame. So to subdue lust is a different process. Then you have to take to Deity worship." Letter, Seattle, Washington , 03 October - 1968
Only low class men refuse to elevate themselves, are attracted to ideas it can be religious to rape wife, not wanting to stretch their brain to uncover real meaning. Rather to set off toward opportunity to rape wife whenever he wants, then to blame Srila Prabhupada through misquotes or partial unclear quotes, for their sex and power attachments. Show one comment where Prabhuapda says to his disciple: "You are good Vaisanva husband if you rape your wife." NOWHERE!
They need to admit, they do not understand Prabhupada, with their mundane brain, and his superior spiritual brain. They are drawn to the muck, and never question themeselves. What happened to guilty conscience when they do something wrong? Appears they have none, always must be right. We wonder if their nerve endings have gone dead to not send the message to their brain rape is not spiritual, and to search out the true meaning. Is the only way some of them can feel be through violent actions, to shake their nerve endings awake?
Msogynists, stop lying. Renounce material sex and power; return to celibacy and surrender to Krishna. If unable, then confess the truth, live life as best as possible, but stop corrupting Prabhupada's movement with your falldown conceptualizations.
How many in the Brahma Sampradaya line of purest guru's, like Srila Prabhupada, or Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Goswami, or Bhaktivinode Thakura, all the way back, how many have a reputation for raping? None. Where are quotes to prove they wanted their disciples to rape? Nowhere! Therefore a need to humble the self that we, most everyone who is not pure devotee, accept we not to fully understand the ways of expression of Srila Prabhupada, and he is therefore not approving rape. Its usually men who are all ready rapists, that do not want to see facts of what Prabhupada said here to be more about what was law at the time, or what karmi men or women did at that time, or what was current. Nowhere in accepting devotees that took vows did he ever include rape as acceptable! Celibacy yes, rape no.
Usually men who promote rape quotes and never try to see if they possibly could have misunderstand, are some level of rapist, a crime.
If there still remains confusion over this, for this blooger what is clear, and what is not, this much I am sure of: Prabhupada was not instructing rape, Prabhupada would not talk of these things unless there was a lesson to be learned, some benefit to keep us from the pit falls and assist us some way or other, with relevance to going back to Godhead. Like, watch out for mundane lawyers (there can be spiritual lawyers), and beware that there still are men who like to rape yet take no responsibility for their actions while blaming the woman, and we should watch over a teenager who can't yet make good choices at such a time when hormones rage but they are too young in kali yuga. Conceivably more perspectives can be found. Otherwise I do not see he would have brought it up. We may need to take time to decipher in our more modern language and understanding, but never have read one letter of instruction to a disciple it was ok to rape his wife, or to that wife to surender to rape. Never.
"The institution of varnashrama-dharma is used by selfish men to pose an artificial predominance over the weaker section." -S. Bhagavatam 1:2:13
"Because this human life is meant for God realization. It is not meant for sex enjoyment or sense gratification. It is simply meant for... Here is an opportunity to understand one's constitutional position, that he is spirit soul, and Krishna or the Supreme Lord is also spirit soul. So the spirit soul, individual soul, is part and parcel of Krishna. Therefore it is his duty to remain with the whole." - Srila Prabhupada Lecture, Srimad Bhagavatam 6.1.48 - Dallas, July 30, 1975
Devotee means.... http://womeninkrsnaconsciousness.blogspot.com/2010/07/devotee-means.html
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