Tuesday, July 20, 2010

WOMEN'S BUSINESS

Disappointing to stumble across excessive amounts of blogs and sites taking Prabhupada's quotes concerning women out of context, or do not explain it further. They collect passages from various places, compile all onto one site, making it appear this was what Prabhupada wanted. While Prabhupada may have made a few comments even I don't understand (yet), most of them can be understood, with his goal always Krishna - not opression of women.

Here's one explained, be patient, to read through. Then see helpful pointers below.

"However great a woman may be, she must place herself before her husband in this way; that is to say, she must be ready to carry out her husband’s orders and please him in all circumstances. Then her life will be successful. When the wife becomes as irritable as the husband, their life at home is sure to be disturbed or ultimately completely broken. In the modern day, the wife is never submissive, and therefore home life is broken even by slight incidents. Either the wife or the husband may take advantage of the divorce laws. According to the Vedic law, however, there is no such thing as divorce laws, and a woman must be trained to be submissive to the will of her husband. Westerners contend that this is a slave mentality for the wife, but factually it is not; it is the tactic by which a woman can conquer the heart of her husband, however irritable or cruel he may be. In this case we clearly see that although Cyavana Muni was not young but indeed old enough to be Sukanyā’s grandfather and was also very irritable, Sukanyā, the beautiful young daughter of a king, submitted herself to her old husband and tried to please him in all respects. Thus she was a faithful and chaste wife." Srimad Bhagavatam 9.6.53 purport

Expoundings:

Her material life will be successful. Not much discussing, there, of spiritual success. She may or may not have spiritual success depending on both partners in Krishna consciousness or outside of Krishna consciousness. However, materially if she learns this art, she may calm the wild beast, be he not too wild, too often.

To carry out husbands "orders" is thorny for kali yuga devotees to understand. Its also one sided.

'If a man is in good consciousness, he consults with his religious wife, and as a result of this consultation, with intelligence, one advances in his ability to estimate the value of life. In other words, if one is fortunate enough to have a good, conscientious wife, he can decide by mutual consultation that human life is meant or advancing in Krishna consciousness and not for begetting a large number of children. " S. Bhagavatam 4.27.6

It additionally becomes difficult to follow current yuga husband orders, or it's value, especially when those wanting to give the orders seldom meet the extremely high standard set by Srila Prabhupada. Thus they show no symptoms inspiring anyone to want to follow their orders. Concurrenty insisting on the right to give orders, and submissiveness of wife.

Prabhupada expectation: they'd actually live up to initiation vows and lifestyle. Husbands were to become pure relatively quickly since they were suppose to be in fire of purification. Why Srila Prabhupada should have to return and pick them up again? Guru is not ornamental to put picture around home or on altar for decoration. No, if one accepts him as guru they must follow him as guru. Misogynists and polygamists want their cake and eat it too.

"Answering your puzzle, it may be said that a pure devotee is he who loves Krishna, without any material desire. People are generally engaged in karma. Karma means work and get the result and enjoy life. And jnana, jnana means speculating process to understand the Absolute Truth. So one who does not indulge in speculating habit, neither tries to gain something by his work, but simply engages himself in the service of the Lord, he is called a pure devotee. Such pure devotees are very rare. But by the Grace of Krishna, practically all the devotees and disciples who have kindly joined me, they are, their symptoms are pure devotees. Even if they have got some ulterior desire, that will be removed very soon, because they have taken to the pure process of Krishna Consciousness." Srila Prabhupada, letter, Janaki dd, Seattle Oct 13, 1968 .

"Initiation does not mean they have completed all their spiritual perfection and now they can relax but it means now they have begun spiritual life. If they are true to their vows, they will find all perfection in this life and be eligible to go back to Godhead." Srila Prabhupada, letter, 7-25-75

Be they still in the process, or do they think now to be so advanced they've got it whipped? In scriptural stories of pure souls we don’t see a great deal of ‘ordering about’ to their wives. Sometimes, surely not consistant overseeing. Kali yuga misogynists use top-mentioned quote to tell wife what color clothing to wear, or whether she's allowed to drive a car or not drive a car. Husband is not always to control, or correct. Waste of time if he’s micromanaging wife when he could be serving Krsna. Thus if he is in maya, then his maya it be called.

Suggestive in this verse is an asymmetric, modern women who've never had the experience to consciously be submissive, and somewhat insufficient in tolerance. That is part of the subject matter to be taken into consideration.

While currently it seems too much turned around, with the reverse more an inclination.

Next a brief discren: innumerable devotee men blame only women for taking advantage of divorce laws. Here we see Prabhupada saying, men too do this.

Observing the slave comment, rereading, it can be seen Prabhupada did "not" say wife is slave. Look closely. What he said was, others criticize she would be slave. To which he disagreed, pointing to a tactic women can use to calm an irritable, though by nature kindhearted, husband.

Prabhupada explains this technique can reverse husbands bad feelings, thus brining material happiness. We're assuming all husbands who are irritable, are also by nature, or by purification, good hearted - not abusive; are properly following the 4 regs without sexual frustrations taken out on wife (cruelty).

If the man is of good heart, the above tactic often works. Whereas man who enjoys the pleasure-empowerment sensation of yelling at wife, abusing her verbally or any other way, such kindnesses from her often stokes his fire, invokes more excuses for abuses. Prabhupada expectation of his male devotee is to be of good heart and not harm the wife.

It may appear all right that husband be cruel since woman can modify his behavior and conquer his heart. Its not acceptable kali yuga Vaisnava protocol. If it works to modify for change, no harm trying, even nondevotee women give this a whirl. If it won't work, it's not that Prabhupada insists to stay with a dangerous man. Violence is maya, women protection is about "protection," not her longterm tolerance of cruelty.

Prabhupada's evidence of not wanting female devotees hurt is these way, is how he himself treated women disciples. Tremendously different from misogynists and polygamists treatment of them.

Consequently while we read Prabhupada's comment as in quote atop, we need to recognize we may not exactly understand, revealed by how he utilized it; through by caring, kindness, consideration to his women disciples. If misogynists want to be first class as they claim, then let them do it that way.

Another consideration, when this tactic works, it should not be a regular requirement. If husband does not have self-calming abilities, or has the propensity to go into a rage far too often, it's not wifes job to control his senses, calm him down regularly; this is his job as a follower of Bhakti Yoga. He should not be dependant on wife to do this for him, she's not therapist. However if this goes on, husband should be honest, get help. Seldom do.

"A fallen husband is one who is addicted to the four principlesof sinful activity--namely illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling andintoxication. Specifically, if one is not a soul surrendered to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is understood to be contaminated. Thus a chaste woman is advised not to agree to serve such a husband. It is not that a chaste woman should be like a slave while her husband is naradhama, the lowest of men. Giving up the association of her husband does not mean, however, that a woman should marry again and thus indulge in prostitution. If a chaste woman unfortunately marries a husband who is fallen, she should live separately from him. " Srimad Bhagavatam 7.11.29Purport

Whilst this is about the lowest of the low, simply the example is there. Also misogynists: stop damaging Prabhupada's reputation on the net. You are the woman-haters, not he.

Referencing the first verse at the top, we see Prabhupada is speaking of Sukanya, the daughter of a King, trained a certain way in a certain era, predominately treated good more often than not. While we might take some pointers, we also are not to imitate. Do we really think Cyavana Muni was an abuser? A narcissist? Spent his life in cruelty toward women? Trying to milk more and more pleasures out of them? Or is it more likely due to old age, aches and pains, that he was grumpy (as is suggested); then with kindness of a young woman he could forget his problems awhile and thus be happy with her more and more? Cyavana Muni was good in heart. All devotee husbands must first be good in heart, which includes nonviolence.

Whilst misogynists relish pointing out Prabhupada said wife be submissive to husband even when husband's cruel, it isn't a license to maintain cruelty.

They forget, they are suppose to be functioning on the level of almost pure devotee in accordance to initiation instructions and letters. They forget Prabhupada did not instruct women to be submissive husbands in maya. Misogynists want unconditional surrender. Prabhupada did not give that instruction.

Improper desires, beating woman to snap her out of maya (is in truth his maya), stopping her from: keeping vows of 4 regulative principles (celibacy), 16 rounds; following Prabhupada’s other instructions like worship, regulated shastra reading, involvement in preaching program - a husband who blocks those (often sneakily) is in maya and not to be surrendered to.

Avoid marital breakup, get someone in knowledge to preach him out of maya, or another similar solution. To just go along with it only encrusts the women into rebirth upon rebirth.

Concurrently misogynists have unbridled minds and senses, thus if woman is to say or do much contrary to him, he may beat, or worse at risk to happen, even if he never went that far before. Precautions must be taken.

Simply in regards to the aforementioned top verse, the subject matter of staying with a man even when he is in a cruel mood, it needs to be pointed out that same man must also be following Prabhupada's program, and be of good heart, not a chronic moody, angry man or abuse -ever.


Such quotes are almost always Varnashrama-Dharma. While some are attracted to Varnashrama-Dharma because its 'suppose' to save everyone, too often the reality is, the bulk drawn to it want to smoke weed, drink wine, some even want to eat a little meat or fish, and let us not forget those drawn to it want to have lots of sex with lots of women- polygamy. Not a one of them want to be corrected by woman, even when he is getting high or looking for extra women and breaking vows. Pure Varnahsrama-dharma would be good, if first to get the rascals out and the qualified in. Higher still is to remember, Prabhupada gave superior instructions to initiates.

How much fun are such men to live with? Is he "strictly" following "all" of Prabhupada's instructions? Is he on the level of Cyavana Muni ? If he is not usually a blissful, happy, satisfied man; picks on wife a lot, or always wanting her to serve him subtracting too much of her time where she could be serving Krishna - if husband is miserable, not joyful, this is not Krishna consciousness or at a very low level. Its not in accordance to Prabhupada. Some men who are miserable and abusive unknowingly suffer from chronic depression. Not justification, worth consideration.

"Even if one is highly elevated in material education and is even the disciple of Brhaspati, he still has to learn from the gopis and the other residents of Vrndavana how to love Krsna to the highest degree." ~ Krsna Book, Chapter 46

"So by hari-nama, by chanting, by this way, to live little peacefully in the temple and eat and sleep, that much they have got. If that is the success, that success they have got. And this was condemned by my Guru Maharaja, that "To earn some money by showing Deity in the temple and eat and sleep--better you become a sweeper in the street and earn your honest livelihood and live." This is cheating. This was condemned. To construct a temple.... Just like the Vrndavana Gosvamis are doing. They thought that "This is our business. Some innocent people will come here and offer some.... Bas, that's our good income." According to the temple's popularity, they think, "This is our success." Therefore they are deteriorating. So that is not success. Success is his who is pushing forward the preaching method." Conversations with Srila Prabhupada, 2 May, 1976, Fiji

While misogynists be quick to point out all the rules and regulations of married life woman must follow, many have forgotten this next all-important instruction of Prabhupada, that even man who married should not remain at home much, as his association with woman increases his lust and he wants to falldown. (Not fault of woman, or man, is biological science.) Husband instead is to be out performing devotional service, when home often to separate himself from her in the house (without rudeness or blame) as we see men of the 1940s and 50’s had their own “library” room.

Every man needs his cave to recoup, then to get energized and inspired. He does not achieve that from the energy he receives from the opposite sex, though some try to get it that way, but it is only through devotional service he will succeed. If he’s busy in these ways, he will have less time or interest to nit pick with the wife over nothing. Hence Srila Prabhupada’s instructions are that husband should not spend a lot of time in close association of wife.

Initiates should not be sleeping in same bed. Preferably, not in same room.

See how Prabhupada treated his disciples in female bodies-
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